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What is a Doula? – A Conversation with Sarah Lavelle

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The first thing that Sarah explains to me, is that the better question to ask may be “Why is a Doula?” 

Sarah explains: “Doulas are an ancient and timeless response to gaps in care. The role [of a doula] is always going to be highly individualized to time and place and community.”

Today, they cover roles not met by traditional medical providers, family or friends. That may include non-medical support, psycho-spiritual and psycho-social needs, advocacy through birth and pregnancy, education, physical support, anything the family needs…

“There’s a Doula for Every Family”

If you don’t want physical support, maybe you want someone who knows about perinatal disorders. Typically, doulas have an area of expertise which may include: prenatal, birth, postpartum, bereavement, miscarriage. There is no standardized doula, some have certification and formal training but some are very successful without.

  • Prenatal Doulas may provide childcare education and resources or references for pediatricians, family leave, chiropractors and more. They can provide activities, meditation, body work and go over early/active labor such as helping you time contractions.
  • Birth Doulas usually include some prenatal care, as well, and a few postpartum appointments. Birth doulas may help you practice positions in labor, breathing techniques and show the birth partner how to help move and support their partner in labor. A doula may include a little bit of everything including therapy or perhaps making sure that families can get connected with professional support. Doulas will usually be on call for random late-night texts, and closer to due date will be available to clients 24 hrs a day. Sarah mentions that she will gladly go to her client’s house and sit with them if necessary. Some doulas will meet their clients at the place of birth and can also help them know when to call a provider or go in to the birth center / hospital. During birth, a doula can provide support by answering questions: “Is this normal? Is this ok? Is this safe?” The doula can also advocate for the pregnant person in hospital or simply remind providers what the pregnant person wants (lights off, knock before coming in, etc.) Sarah’s running list of things she’s checking on during birth include: do they need to drink, eat, rest, suggestions for positions, setting the vibe with lights and aromatherapy and simply being a calming presence to both the pregnant person and their partner. A doula devotes themselves to providing comfort, wiping the pregnant person’s forehead, feeding them and offering words of comfort.
  • Postpartum Doulas can help provide a realistic view of how the birth went. Sometimes we only remember the worst parts, and a doula can remind you of the great things you did. A postpartum doula may provide help caring for the newborn such as infant massage, support for siblings and pets, herbal support such as sitz bath, tea or essential oils, mental support and body work such as massage, acupressure, stretching or posturing the body. Birth and nursing can be very hard on the body and some of these practices can provide relief or help close and heal hipbones.

Birth is like an initiation and then the postpartum period begins. Postpartum is concrete and heavy, but can also be connecting and beautiful.

Sarah Lavelle

Sarah describes a typical Doula visit:

“I might arrive at 6:30pm, bring dinner and let mom take a shower, clean up after dinner, help put kids to bed, fold laundry and pick up around the house. Then I can answer any questions and set goals (example goal: parent gets 4 hours of sleep). I help burping, changing and settling baby back down for sleep. I would help set them up for nursing and make sure they feel confident and not alone.”

How do I Find a Doula?

Sarah explains that a good time to reach out to a Doula is around week 20 in your pregnancy. You can set up an interview process to find a doula who fits with your beliefs and pregnancy. Every doula has an individual way of doing things and being there for the family. During the interview you might ask them about their philosophy and approach or what they would do in a certain situation.

Then you will create a contract which outlines how many meetings before/after birth, what your needs are and what you would like to accomplish. You can also usually set up payment schedules or sliding scales, or even register for a doula in your baby shower.

During the pandemic support is still available. If doulas aren’t able to join you at the hospital they may be able to support you at home before going to the hospital. Some people will also not feel comfortable in the home, but you can also find practical support by phone or virtually.

I want them to be more in love than they’ve ever been after the birth. When you’re free from fear there’s room for joy.

Sarah Lavelle

*Sarah is no longer providing doula services. Please contact your local Beach Cities birth center so we can give you recommendations specific to you and your location!

Proactive Support: Third Trimester

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The second trimester left me drained and exhausted, dreading what every pregnancy book was telling me: the third trimester is the hardest and would leave you MORE tired and achy! It was around this point I finally committed to seeing a therapist for the first time in my life. Again, finding someone good seemed like a daunting task, but this time, learning from past mistakes, I went for the pricier option, which was Rachel Benson, who specializes in therapy during pregnancy and postpartum. From my very first (Zoom) meeting with Rachel I began to get a grip on the anxiety and stress that had become an everyday struggle at this point. She helped me pinpoint and manage the fears and anxieties around birth and pregnancy, which had slowly started to set in.

Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders actually affect up to 1 in 5 new or expectant mothers and their families (these numbers are also likely up because of the current pandemic). These mood and anxiety disorders can be serious and very difficult, but can be treated with a combination of self-care, social support, talk therapy, and medication if necessary.1 Don’t forget that postpartum depression is also common in partners and new dads, as many new challenges arise for them, also!2

So, go for it: reach out, make the appointment, take care of yourself. We’re in a pandemic, stressful political climate, and if you’re also pregnant or postpartum there’s probably a ton of stress in your life. Here are some amazing resources, including many that are free and can be done from the comfort of your own couch!

Support Groups and Therapists

@pelvicsanity

What the Heck is My Pelvic Floor?

The other, much more proactive appointment I made, was to see a Pelvic Floor Therapist. I had never thought about my pelvic floor much before pregnancy and didn’t even know that pelvic floor therapists exist, but so many friends and birth teachers spoke highly of the benefits of pelvic therapy in pregnancy and postpartum. Dr. Whitney Sippl was so helpful! With just one appointment I got so much information about tightness I’m holding in my abs, legs and pelvic floor and how to massage and find relief from all of these aches and pains. Also, how to help prevent diastasis recti and possibly help make labor easier. It was such an informative and helpful visit, even if it is just one prenatal or postpartum visit it could be really helpful to pregnant people and anyone experiencing this type of pain.

Pelvic floor therapists can help with a number of issues related to incontinence, pain with sex, back pain, pubic pain, diastasis recti and so much more. They can also help find the most comfortable position for you in labor using biofeedback, teach you how to successfully relax your pelvic floor for labor and coach your partner in managing back discomfort and more!

Pelvic Floor Therapists:

I am now 32 weeks and feeling better than I have for a while! Allergies are under control with daily Claritin and occasional saline rinses, I have not had to go back to the chiropractor for weeks (though I will probably visit again before labor). I also look forward to yoga and group chats every week and have noticed a huge improvement in my level of stress and anxiety through therapy with Rachel Benson.

Penny Schroeder

One More Support Person?

The last support person I haven’t yet enlisted (which should perhaps be your first!) is a prenatal, birth or postpartum doula! Doulas typically don’t have formal obstetric training, but focus on providing guidance and support to pregnant people before, during or after labor. Doulas can offer so much emotional and physical support it’s only fair to give them their own blog post.

You can ask the front desk at the birth center or your midwife for recommendations in finding a doula for pregnancy, birth or postpartum.

 

*Always consult with your midwife about which treatments are best for you.

  1. https://postpartumva.org/types-of-perinatal-mood-and-anxiety-disorders/
  2. http://postpartum.org/services/dads/signs-of-ppd-anxiety-in-men/

Support for Aches and Pains in Pregnancy: Second Trimester

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A month or two into the second trimester I started to struggle more with back pain and sudden intense pubic bone pain that made it difficult to walk. I’ve been to a chiropractor before and I know how much they can help with back pain and even provide immediate relief. First, I went to a regular chiropractor who assured me he could make adjustments for pregnancy. He was not great. While the adjustments did help with the pain, he gave me the usual “you’ll just have to live with this pain” kind of talk, explaining that my ligaments were loosening and there was just no way to keep my back aligned. I didn’t want to take that as an option, so I decided to pay the out-of-insurance cost of a specialized prenatal chiropractor (Dr. Anne Lundquist) and it was a huge difference! She was much more knowledgeable about my body in pregnancy, adjusting my sleep position and treatments that could continue throughout pregnancy (and postpartum, too)!

I would highly recommend a few visits to a perinatal chiropractor for anyone who is experiencing back or hip pain. Chiropractic can also be beneficial in postpartum and even for babies and children!

@fullcirclechiropractic

Chiropractic Care

See your local Birth Center or ask your midwife for more recommendations near you.

Another highly recommended treatment for pain and nausea is acupuncture. Acupuncture (or acupressure if you’re not ready for the needles) has been highly recommended to me as a tool to get relief from nausea and vomiting in the first trimester and also as a great natural and gentle induction if necessary later in pregnancy (always consult with your midwife about induction techniques and acupuncture during pregnancy).

@coastal_acu

Acupuncture

See your local Birth Center or ask your midwife for more recommendations near you.

The other amazing relief I found was through prenatal massage! COVID and social distancing has made it difficult to find a good prenatal massage therapist, but I did find Sycamore Spa by Hudson in Laguna Beach that is doing outdoor massage (set up in private little tents). There are also some who will come to you, or have other safety measures in place in their office. It was a very luxurious day of self-care and gave some much needed relief to sore, stretched and tight muscles. Again, make sure to find a place that is knowledgeable about prenatal massage, it can be great for relaxation and relieving sore muscles and later in pregnancy can also be used to help induce labor (always consult with your midwife about induction techniques and massage during pregnancy).

Prenatal Massage

*Always consult with your midwife about which treatments are best for you.

Where I Found Support in Pregnancy: First Trimester

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I found out I was pregnant right around that 5-week mark, and along with feeling excited and happy and nervous, I had lots of questions about what to do next! One of my first goals was to keep exercising and stay fit, this was also repeated to me by Midwives and birth books: make sure to get exercise, especially cardio and walking. Just remember that you are more prone to falls in pregnancy because your center of gravity shifts, so stay with exercise that will not put you at risk. The first trimester was little more than mild nausea for me (and maybe a few extra emotions and stress) so even though the Pandemic had thrown a bit of a wrench in my workout routine, I was still able to do some online HIIT videos, long walks, even jump rope and kickboxing! Even so, I was already starting to notice getting tired more quickly and not being able to do what I used to, as my body was diverting some of that strength and energy into prepping for a baby! That feeling can be discouraging, which is where pregnancy-specific programs helped and generally just learning to be gentle and patient with myself.

Second trimester snuck up on me and I was hit with pregnancy rhinitis (bad allergies!) which left me tired and drained, plus I was starting to get bigger and on top of it all anxiety was mounting! I was still able to get in a good walk in the morning (encouraged by my big dog) but cardio and strength work was starting to become less frequent by the end of the second trimester. I had been following along with some yoga videos through YouTube and Facebook, but was having to modify lots of poses and feeling much weaker than I used to! So, I decided to sign up for a prenatal yoga class instead and invest a bit of money to also hold myself accountable to at least do the once a week class. I found @graceandgratitudelife on Instagram and it has been so worth it – Elizabeth’s class was such a blessing from day one! We start every Zoom session with a little check-in from our 6 mammas in the group and I immediately found so much comfort in relating to these other pregnant women all in different stages of pregnancy and life. We have so many different struggles and also so much of the same. We can all find a feeling of connection in going through pregnancy during a Pandemic and it’s so nice to have that small community.

Here are some of my favorite exercise resources:

@graceandgratitudelife

More recommendations & ideas:

@fit4momlongbeach

*Always consult with your midwife before starting a new workout routine or with any concerns about exercise during pregnancy

Safe Use of Essential Oils in Pregnancy and Beyond

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Essential Oils have become a hot topic lately, with grandiose claims of treating cancer, to cautionary tales of side effects and people developing rashes and severe headaches from their use! So, what to do? Can lavender really help you relax and promote sleep? Can essential oils boost your immune system? Our advice is to gain knowledge and use them sparingly.

You can start with the Essential Oils class offered by Danielle Rysavy (@thegreenmamma on Instagram or email: thegreenmammaoils@gmail.com).

Essential Oils Class with Danielle Rysavy 

I took Danielle’s class on a Zoom call with a few other expecting moms. I was about 22 weeks pregnant and wanted to learn more about essential oils to help with anxiety and possibly ease pain and backaches. Danielle does sell the oils through DoTerra, and though she did present some different options to buy them at the end, I was glad that it did not feel like a sales pitch and there wasn’t any pressure or follow-ups to purchase (we even got a couple free samples!).

The class is a thorough introduction to essential oils and as a Mamma herself, Danielle goes through a list of things that may be ailing you in pregnancy and postpartum (even some essential oils which may support you in birth, as well). She covers how to use the oils in aromatherapy, topically and internally by ingestion (Beach Cities Midwifery recommends to never ingest even the highest quality essential oils. They are not regulated by the FDA and very little research has been done in this area. Many oils are potentially harmful if ingested, especially during pregnancy). There are holistic and homeopathic “medicines” which can be used safely in pregnancy, please speak to your Midwife about options. Danielle also reiterates to use a lesser amount even topically or in aromatherapy while pregnant and breast-feeding. We also agree essential oils can be lovely in an epsom salt bath, but never use them in your birthing tub!

Find Our Class Schedule on Instagram.

So, Can They Really Cure Cancer?

The short answer is no, of course not. After the class, I followed up with some of my own research on the quality and claims of essential oils. Many of these claims are simply a marketing ploy to get you to spend a lot of money on this multi-billion-dollar industry. Many others are anecdotal claims with almost no research back them up. There have also been numerous lawsuits and accounts of essential oils causing serious harm, if used frequently and improperly (mainly if ingested or applied topically).  – But hang on! – Essential oils DO have some scientifically proven benefits. Studies on the use of lavender in aromatherapy, inhalation and massage show promising results for anxiety and stress, producing a calming effect without sedation or side effects. Tea tree oil has been used topically for decades in wound healing and is commonly used today for acne, athlete’s foot and insect bites. There is some evidence that peppermint oil helps relieve IBS symptoms and may relieve headaches when applied topically. In the end there simply is not enough research, but there is some evidence of real benefits, and if the scent helps you and relieves stress – go for it! Just remember to be cautious and do a little research.

What’s Right For You

Personally, I decided to try a few different oils in a simple and inexpensive “passive diffuser” – just add a few drops to the ceramic piece. You can also place a few drops in a bowl of sea salt – no need to buy any expensive equipment and it’s portable, too! I love taking an occasional Epsom salt bath with lavender, ylang ylang or chamomile and using a few drops of lavender in a diffuser at night, or a calming blend diluted for topical use. There are plenty of readily available roll-ons which are already safely diluted for you, so you can take out the guesswork – just make sure to find a reputable, quality brand…

On Quality of Oils

It can get quite confusing since there are plenty out there to choose from with large variations in price and little regulation on any of them! (This is thanks to multi-billion dollar lobbying efforts by the “wellness industry” back in the 1980’s, leaving companies free to really put any additives they want into their products – yikes!) Danielle also adds that 80% of essential oils are adulterated with cheap additives – think the 5-pack at CVS for $10. Generally, pure essential oils will be much more costly but also last longer and have big advantages in quality. True essential oils will also vary widely in cost based on the abundance and the part of the plant used.

Since There is No Organization Which Oversees The Quality of Essential Oils, How Can You Really Know?

Brands have developed terms such as “Therapeutic Grade” or other certifications which are purely marketing terms, that are also sometimes trademarked. Any of these terms are basically meaningless, therefore, it is best to look for a company which guarantees their oils through independent third-party testing, most importantly GC/MS (Gas Chromatograph/ Mass Spectrometer) testing. It is also helpful to simply test the oils yourself by smell and begin to notice the obvious difference between synthetics and pure oils.

A Few Popular Brands

  • DoTerra – This multi-level marketing company is now ubiquitous and boasts GC/MS testing reports and insight into their sourcing. However, all of this testing is done internally and the quality reports can only be accessed AFTER buying the product. Their website does state a full refund if you are not satisfied. Their prices are considerably higher than most other brands, and some options require you to buy a subscription or package deal through a rep. (You can reach out to Danielle Rysavy at thegreenmammaoils@gmail.com)
  • Plant Therapy – The huge plus for this company is that they do third-party GC/MS testing and all results are fully disclosed on their website. Their prices are also among some of the most affordable and they offer a large variety of oils and blends, as well as organic oils and “Kidsafe” essential oils. They also offer a generous 90-day 100% money back guarantee.
  • Aura Cacia – They are widely available at grocery stores and online have been around since 1976. This is not an MLM but rather a co-op structure, meaning they receive input based on all member’s ideas. They offer a wide variety of well-priced products including organics and roll-on blends, and also conduct GC/MS testing and sourcing, though all done internally. They also offer a 60-day refund policy, if not fully satisfied.
  • Mountain Rose Herbs – If you want to support a company focused on sustainability, zero-waste and fair trade check out Mointain Rose Herbs. They also seek out organic and pesticide-free plants, through close supplier relations and offer third-party GC/MC and HPTLC testing. They have a wide variety of products and are well priced, though slightly higher than both Aura Cacia and Plant Therapy.

Usage Checklist

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NEVER ingest essential oils, especially children or pregnant people. (Even the highest quality oils are potentially dangerous if ingested).

✔️

ALWAYS use a carrier oil for topical use (about 1% dilution in a carrier oil such as jojoba oil, coconut oil or avocado oil) and take extra precaution while pregnant.

✔️

ALWAYS use a carrier, such as Epsom salt or sea salt when using essential oils in the bath; AND

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NEVER use essential oils in your birthing tub. They can irritate Baby’s skin and eyes.

Extra Precautions in Pregnancy

Many oils such as lavender, peppermint, frankincense, chamomile and sandalwood to name a few can be safely and effectively used during pregnancy and breastfeeding. A few points When using essential oils in pregnancy:

  • Limit your use during pregnancy, especially in the first trimester.
  • Check that the oil is safe to use during pregnancy and/or breastfeeding. (For example, through the charts provided below).
  • Use a dilution of 1-5% for skin applications.
  • Consider using a passive diffuser, rather than a personal inhaler, which is much stronger.
  • Keep in mind that essential oils, being organic compounds, will cross the placental barrier and have the potential to affect Baby.

 

About the Author

Penny Schroeder is Social Media Marketing Director for Beach Cities Midwifery and also a first-time pregnant mom. She is figuring out how to support herself in pregnancy and absorbing all the information she can while passing on the things that have helped her to the Beach Cities community.

Always talk to your midwife about using essential oils, homeopathic medicine or other holistic medicine during pregnancy, birth and postpartum. Your midwife can also provide additional options and find what works best for you.

  1. Essential Oil of Lavender in Anxiety Disorders: Ready for Prime Time? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6007527/
  2. Aromatherapy: Do Essential Oils Really Work https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/aromatherapy-do-essential-oils-really-work
  3. How To Know if Your Essential Oils Are Top Quality? https://www.meghantelpner.com/blog/how-to-know-if-your-essential-oils-are-top-quality/
  4. Mountain Rose Policies https://mountainroseherbs.com/policies/faq/
  5. Top 10 Best Essential Oil Brands in 2020 https://www.essentialoilhaven.com/best-essential-oil-brands/
  6. Are Essential Oils Safe To Use During Pregnancy? https://blog.planttherapy.com/blog/2016/12/27/pregnancy-and-nursing-safety-part-1/
  7. Guidelines For Aromatherapists Working With Pregnant Clients https://naha.org/assets/uploads/PregnancyGuidelines-Oct11.pdf
  8. Podcast: “The Dream”, Little Everywhere & Witness Docs https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dream/id1435743296

Incredible “Mermaid Births” Are Still Some of the Rarest in the World Today

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An en caul birth, also known as a “mermaid birth” or “veiled birth”, is when the baby comes out still inside or partially wrapped in the amniotic sac. This happens in only 1 in 80,000 births, making it extremely rare.1 It might look like your newborn is completely gift-wrapped in a soft bubble.

The amniotic sac is made up of two layers of membranes and filled with amniotic fluid which the baby has been floating inside of during the entire pregnancy. Usually when you’re about to go into labor your amniotic sac ruptures – your water breaks. If the water doesn’t break, the baby is born en caul, usually inside the inner layer of membrane or just partially covered.

During birth and right after, baby stays safe, having everything they need inside the amniotic sac, which is then carefully removed by the midwife or doctor. Sometimes a squirming baby, may even break open the amniotic sac on their own. If the sac is already ruptured or only partially covering baby it is easily removed, though more care should be taken if baby is born with the outer membrane still intact.

Midwife Julie Shares the Story of Vera’s En Caul Birth

It was incredible to catch these images right after Vera was born. I loved removing the sac, and unveiling her face. We didn’t know if she was a boy or a girl until she was born. I remember seeing her body inside the sac and it ruptured just enough for me to see her sex as I brought her to my chest. I was shocked and elated to see she was a girl and that it looked as though she was wearing a beautiful cream shawl around her shoulders. This is truly her personality- she is regal in every sense of the word. It made sense to see her veiled crown slide down and rest on her royal shoulders. Vera is an old, wise soul and she looks though every person she meets as if she knows more about them then they do themselves.

– Julie Oates, MSN, CNM

Magical and Spiritual Abilities?

Throughout history, en caul births have been attributed with fame and fortune, even magical and spiritual abilities. In many parts of Europe, the amniotic sac, or “caul” itself held such special fortune, that it was often sold as a token of good luck and protection.2 It was provided to lawyers, needing good fortune in pleading their cases and even as an ingredient in love potions. In Old Nordic beliefs a child born en caul was said to have the special ability to navigate between many worlds and see into the future. As early as the 16th century, some physicians, finding a simple biological explanation, began to scorn any superstitious beliefs associated with en caul births.3

Whether you believe in the magical associations of an en caul birth or not, it is a beautiful thing to behold, so if your little one is born inside a water balloon, consider yourself extra fortunate! They are so rare that most midwives never witness an en caul birth in their entire careers.

Establishing a ‘Due Date’

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The pregnancy confirmation visit is a joyous time to celebrate the ‘official’ recognition of a pregnancy.  During this visit questions are asked about the first day of last menstrual period (LMP), how regular the periods are, any bleeding since the last period, and how you are feeling.  However, even with the best account of periods there is rarely the identification as to when conception occurs.  Because sperm are viable for up to 5 days it gives some variability about when conception occurs.  Ovulation kit use can help but there is variability around the strength of the measurement of the hormone found in the urine. Accuracy of dating is important to prevent unnecessary intervention on either side of the ‘term pregnancy’ definition of 37-42 weeks gestation.

So what is the best way to determine the due date?  With early entry into care (< 10 weeks) the due date is more accurate when the size of the growing uterus, determined by a pelvic exam, correlates with the LMP.  Ultrasound in the first trimester improves the accuracy of final EDD.  Early ultrasound prior to 10 weeks of pregnancy is accurate within 5 days.  So if an early ultrasound determines that the fetus is smaller or larger by 5 days of the LMP then the EDD can and should be changed to the ultrasound finding.

So why are we concerned about establishing an accurate EDD?  Evidence shows that babies born at term (37-42 weeks) have the best outcomes and the ultimate goal of care for pregnancy and birth is having the best outcome! As a provider I have heard over the years of women that had babies at 42-44 weeks without any problems. These women generally did not have good data to confirm the pregnancy early and no early ultrasound leaving variability to the accuracy of the EDD.  It can be very frustrating to come to the end of your prenatal care, only to have a discussion about whether the EDD that we have all been using may not be accurate.

It is especially frustrating for the provider and client planning an out of hospital birth and the birth time falls either before or after the 37-42 week definition for the pregnancy. So establishing the due date based on the best information is critical to prevent unnecessary intervention such as induction of labor. As midwives we strive to clarify the due date so we can create the best plan with our families for an low intervention pregnancy and birth. There will be a blog post discussing postdates pregnancy posted later as a part of this series.

Many Hands Make Light Work: Our Team Model of Midwifery

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Even before touring our peaceful birthing suites and chatting with a Beach Cities Midwife (link to midwives splash page) about our practice and their options for care with us during a free consultation, a common question from people considering pregnancy care and birthing with us is, “do I get to pick my midwife?”

A good first answer is, in a way, yes! When clients join our practice, they pick all 5 of our expert midwives as their care providers, along with the ability and flexibility to be seen by each of them at any or all of our three locations (link to locations page). We work with each client to schedule appointments strategically as their care progresses to make sure they have lots of time with each midwife.

As far as routine pregnancy care is concerned, our group model of care is one in which clients benefit from the perspective and wisdom of practitioners with different backgrounds and areas of expertise. One midwife may draw from her familiarity with herbs and homeopathy, while another uses her own past birthing experiences, and another her extensive clinical history. They share knowledge with each other and Beach Cities families profit from a deep bench of talent. By seeing each of the midwives for half-hour-long appointments several times over the course of care, clients become familiar with each midwife, and vice versa. Additionally, for families in their third trimester, we also provide Meet The Midwives teas at each of our locations. These are a time to meet and hear from any of the midwives they haven’t yet met, and spend more time with the ones they have.